The Greatest Upsell of All: Brakes
Monday August 27, 2007
Upsells are everywhere, and the realm of auto repair is no exception. Let's face it, your mechanic (or the dealership) is running a business, and businesses need money. A harmless upsell won't hurt anyone, will it? Maybe not, but an unnecessary repair takes money out of your pocket that doesn't need to be spent, and that's something to get upset about. Pam from Washington DC is among those who do not want to be unnecessarily upsold. She writes:
Dear Matthew: I have a 2000 Jetta V6 with about 35,000 miles on it. I drive it daily, but mostly go fairly short distances in city traffic. About 3 years ago, the dealer recommended I replace the brake pads and rotors, which I did. I took the car in today to have something else looked at, and the dealer is again recommending I replace the brake pads and rotors -- he says they won't make it to my next scheduled service ...Pam, STOP! You are being upsold! Driving infrequently causing your brakes to wear? What?!? New rotors??? Brakes will last more or less forever if you don't put any miles on them. If they sit for a very long time -- like 5 years -- they could develop enough rust to damage the rotors, but that thin brown dust you might see after a week or two comes right off the first time you use the brakes. No harm done at all. You probably don't even need new brake pads if you don't ride the brakes or put a lot of miles on the car, but that's debatable in any venue. Brake upsells are probably the most perpetrated.
When I asked about needing to replace them again, the service manager went on about these parts needing to be replaced more frequently on cars that aren't driven regularly, and then said something about infrequent driving likely leading to rust on the rotors. Anyway -- it seems like this is a bit too soon to need to replace these parts again. Is it? Thanks. -- Pam, Washington DC
Of course, you can avoid all of this if you change your own brake pads and inspect your own brakes. Even if you discover damage, you can easily install a new brake rotor for far less cash than the shop!
photo by Matt Wright, 2007
Comments
I cannot believe what recommendation was just made to this person. At a bare minimum she should have the brakes inspected by a different repair shop. If she really does need them, she should have it repaired immediately - ITS THE BRAKE SYSTEM - not something you want to skimp on.
If the dealership is legit then they will gladly show her her brakes with the vehicle on a lift, wheels off so that she can see for herself what is going on.
Today’s brake components are not made of the same metals as before and have much more tendancy to rust. The rust is dangerous in that it can cause the brake pad itself to sieze inside the holder. This will cause premature wear, or worse, that pad may not even make contact with the rotor when the brake pedal is depressed.
Being cautious about what you are being told is good, go see for yourself or get a second opinion. Do not dismiss that a registered repair facility is just trying to take advantage of you!
So you’re saying that a brake pad is going to “freeze” into its holder firmly enough to counter the massive force of the hydraulic piston pushing against it?
This article is full of terrible advice. I am astonished at the consistency with which he spouts off drivel. I would answer this question by agreeing with the first commenter - if you don’t trust the shop you are at, take it somewhere else and don’t go back there. Find a shop you can trust and get the service recommended on your car. In the long run, you will be safer and happier with your car than if you pinched pennies and (worse!) did the work yourself. I would sincerely doubt that Matt ever donned a pair of coveralls except to take the photo for this website.
It is quite possible that she has 4 wheel disc and they were repairing the rears this time! Maybe the communication was not what it should have been, Yes a second opinion is the best advice. In the Auto REpair business your damn if you do and damn if you don’t tell the consumer what the car requires to fix it. Good luck
Skimping on your brakes?????????? What kind of IDIOT would suggest that???? Why would you recommend changing the brakes yourself when the majority of people out there aren’t trained properly (or at all) to competantly work on something as critical as your brake system (especially on a newer vehicle where it is critical to use proper materials). Matthew Wright, your an idiot to suggest a person (most of the time untrained) replace thier own brakes and put the rest of the drivers on the road at risk like that. How long have you been repairing cars (not counting TODAY)????? People, don’t listen to matt… he’s an idiot. Just make sure you go to a reputable shop and have the saleperson or even the tech show you the parts before you make your decision on whether you spend money on safety or not.
YES! I know I’m doing something right when the paid mechanics start ganging up and attacking my advice. Glen seems to think that none of you are capable of changing your own brake pads! Ha! I’ve been repairing and restoring cars since 1991, and now I’m trying to help others learn to do things for themselves. If that means less money for a few grouchy mechanics, so be it. The sad thing is that there is enough money to be made legitimately in auto repair without having to insult car owners by implying they are too stupid to replace their own brake pads.
I like the fact that you want to teach people to repair their own cars. But don’t you think that to teach them is to be with them as in an apprenticship, menter type fastion, as opposed to telling them they can do it themselves.
I have work in a lot of differant places and am still totally supprised at the vehical maintence that I see from self proclaimed “Do it yourselfers”. It is a wonder that their vehical is mobile at all.
As to the rust thing that you claim is no big deal, I disagree. Not to say that the serface rust is bad or that it won’t fall off if you drive the vehical. No. but it all does not come off, therefore leaving some behind. If any is left behind then as time pases and this continues then what do you suppose will happen. Don’t tell people to go and change their own brakes, or for that matter any part on there car unless they are qualified!! Most people have a difficult enough time getting the oil checked, let alone changing brakes PROPERLY!!
Maybe you should go back to the shop for a while and have a good look at what comes in the door!
Enjoy
Dealership service departments are the bread and butter of there profit.
They will say anything to get your dollors out of your wallet and into there coffers. DONT TRUST ANYTHING THEY SAY!!! Read your owners manual for what maintinence you need and when,don’t take there word for it.If possible buy the factory service manual for your car.Check e bay. Even if you can’t do the work yourself they make troubleshooting the problem easy so when you go to dealer they can’t BS you as easy. These people are the worst scam artists around today, don’t let the fancy waiting area fool you. You work hard for your money don’t let some smooth talking “Service advisior” take it from you.
I have done all maintenance for almost sixty years now. Grease, brakes, ring gear, torsion bars and whatever else wears or breaks.
Along the way I have learned to weld, beat metal, paint, and make them last at least 150,000 miles (250,000 KM).
It is possible wear out brakes in 20,000 miles and with careful driving make them last over 60,000. On disk brakes all that I have seen have noise maker to warn of thin pads. Rear drum brakes last a long time but need visual check to verify remaining life. With careful driving it is reasonable for disks to last well over 100,000 miles. A simple measurement of thickness will verify whether they need replacement.
Obviously I do all my own oil changes and recycle the old.
duke
You have been sent a link to view a Ripoff Report posted on ARIZONA AUTOMOBILE ASSOCIATION - FORD MOTOR COMPANY. You can view it at http://www.RipOffReport.com/view.asp?id=264173
I am not related to Matthew in anyway, period. But I attest to the fact that his advices ( changing spark plugs , this time )were sound. I do not have any experience as a mechanic , and I went thru his step by step procedures on how to change your spark plugs ,and guess what ? I did it and so very proud of it !
I will be working on my 1999 Toyota 4runner’s brakes and rotors this month and will report on the results . And by the way , thank you Matt for saving me a lot of greens. My mother used to say , ” when you are doing something right, expect criticism. ” Right on Matt , right on !
When our 98 Winstar was new my wife insisted that it was serviced at the dealer which was fine in the beginning, oil changes were reasonably priced and all over inspections were free, however a distinct pattern began to occur, every third visit I got the you need to replace the pades and ROTORS. I declined each time. At 60000kms I replaced the pads myself and measured the rotors with a tool borrowed from an auto parts store. Now at just over 120000kms I replaced the pads and rotors. The rotors were easy to change and the only tool I had to buy was a 1/2″ breaker bar. Total cost $110.00. A friend who has the same model but a “99″ paid over $500 at the dealer. SO BEWARE OF DEALERS.
Aloha ! Walter Cortes here again . Remember comment number 11 ? As promised , here I am again to tell you about my BRAKE PAD and DISC replacement. Total expenses = $ 343.20 . Materials paid were all genuine Toyota parts that includes : A pair of brake rotors and brake pads . I was priviledged to have a friend that loaned me all of the needed tools. It took me 4 hours to finish the needed work and was somewhat confused putting back things together( thanks to your suggestion Matt about the digital camera ). A little help from a friend , following simple instructions , and a digital camera — I was able to install a brand new brake rotors and pads . Who says you have to be a skilled mechanic to be able to do it ? By the way , the dealer will charge me $ 750.00 for parts and labor . Talk about savings ! Once again Matt, you are awesome ! Thanks.
This is simple. If your brake pads are worn the warning sensors are close if not touching the rotor. If there are no sensors you will see that the pad has 3mm or less thickness. All you have to do is ask your your repair facility to show you this. If indeed the pad is less than 3mm your are risking damaging the rotors when the pad material is gone and goes metal to metal. If you have plenty of pad thickness the only reasons to replace them would be because they are glazed from getting hot causing a brake noise, Or they fade and do not stop as well. A good technician and/or service advisor will explain and show you why they need replaced. As a master tech for 20 years I like the article about asking for your old parts before your repair. It is very good advise. Also don’t be afraid to ask the simple ?’s why ? can you show me ? can you explain?
Robert is absolutely right. Do NOT let your brakes go past the warning sensors. It’s easy to tell yourself “I’ll get to that next week” when you start to hear your brakes whine at you, but like he said, grind away that last 3mm and you’re looking at a much heftier repair bill, even if you do the work yourself! Thanks Robert.